Tales of Tyria Podcast Feed
Monday
Feb062012
Tales of Tyria #17: A Scandal in Seattle
Bridger | Monday, February 6, 2012 at 10:55AM Running on fumes this week, we delve into discussion of the few pieces of new info we have. Specifically that involves some rather salacious armor, which has sparked quite the controversy (for lack of anything better to controvert over). We discuss thes pics, our thoughts on gender in games, and answer a few emails.
Episode 17:
- 03:57 - News: New Screenshots, Press Beta Invites
- 17:50 - Roundtable: Scandal in Seattle
- 41:15 - Mailbag: Women in Games, Viewing Builds in PvP
Weekly Question:
Question of the Week - Is the revealing armor objectifying women in GW2? What about the revealing male armor? Is that objectifyjng men?
Let us know what you think and send us feedback. Also, watch us live on Sunday nights @ 8pm EST.
Reader Comments (11)
This was a great show. You guys brought up a lot of good points, and I agree with pretty much all of it. I guess one good thing we can take away from the explosion of flame threads is that people are showing interest in game. If nobody cared, and no threads were being made about info/screenshots being released, ANet would have a much bigger problem on their hands. Let's remember, trolls are customers too... Any publicity is good publicity? My mighty Ignore Hammer is always at ready, so trolls/haters are just a small annoyance in the end.
Another big topic for consideration of a future show might be "End game", and how they'll cater to those who like a bit of structure. Has ANet said anything about how threat will work, and how strong the bosses will actually hit? No point in warriors/guardians even having heavy armor (other than pvp) if the boss is going to hit random people anyway. I love the idea of not needing specific roles like healers and tank, but I am a bit concerned with how they're going to make it all work from a strategic point of view.
Thanks for putting the show together, I'm sure we'd both agree; the more GW2 information, the better.
Rarely do I ever completely agree with Freelancer, but this episode was an exception. It happens in pretty much every MMO release, and I'm getting pretty tired of self-important kids complaining that they're entitled to something that they're just flat out not entitled to at all. Happened with ToR where people were complaining about the staggered early access - that they were entitled to the maximum duration and such nonsense. If any of us are able to playtest GW2 before the retail release at all, we should sacrifice goats and first-borns to the gods in gratitude.
A possible topic to address in a future show could be methods of storytelling. How do you tell stories in MMOs, and could it be any better? Does the unique structure of GW2's gameplay allow for improved storytelling?
-and-
Will dynamic events mean the character's (player's) story will be determined their actions, differing from other games where actions are determined by story.
Storytelling in MMOs, good topic. Throwing that in the mailbag :)
As another female Guild Wars lover, the skimpy armor doesn't offend me (or the one other female GW player I know). I think it's a wonderful chance to be confident about how you're represented in the world. Especially since it's extremely common in this world for many other females to be dressed like that too! Let's face it, women are gorgeous! Why not have a place in our lives where it's alright to show off women's (and men's) bodies and stare at them for hours as they run around and fight stuff. And from a "how bad-ass am I" point of view, the less armor you can wear while not dying, the more awesome you are. Duh.
also, I'd just like to put this out there: am i the only one jealous of Bridger's awesome broadcaster voice? the day i need a narrator for my autobiographical film, i'm coming to you Bridger.
As a girl who's played video games for the majority of my life, I thought I would give my opinion on some of the gender issues that were brought up in this episode. I definitely agree that it can be fun to have cute outfits to wear in a video game, however I don't think the problem comes from the way female characters look in these outfits so much as the reaction that we receive from guys. I'm fine with wearing "sexy" outfits in a game, however when guys start making vulgar comments towards me, that is when I start to have a problem. If I wear a low cut shirt, or a dress that shows my legs off in real life, I may get a few compliments, but I've never outright had guys come up to me and say the disgusting things I've heard in mmos. This of course ends up tying into the whole anonymity issue, where people feel they can say inappropriate or rude things to people because they aren't saying it to their face. It's unfortunate that woman have to choose between wearing something they think is attractive while being harassed by horny guys, or wearing something modest that just isn't as fun to wear.
I've thought a lot recently about gender inequality in video games, and to be honest I still have no idea why women are still objectified so much. I've met a surprisingly large amount of girls throughout the last few years, whether it's on xbox or world of warcraft or league of legends. I'm hoping that with time, guys will become more accustomed and respectful toward us, and I'll actually feel equal to the rest of the guys when I join a raid finder, or a match in cod.
@Elimindreda
On behalf of adult and mature male gamers, we apologise for our barbaric and childish counterparts. I can only hope you keep in mind that the pathetic and feeble-minded people that make these remarks are generally either 12 years old, the dregs of society, or both.
In terms of the risque armour, I personally dislike it. I can kinda see why female gamers would want the option for the purpose of escapism, but I get nothing out of seeing scantily clad characters. In fact as a guy I find it kind of insulting that designers would believe that I do. In addition, the impracticality of it does slightly bother me. That said, I never play female characters so it won't affect me much.
I would propose a compromise. If the demographic of people who play female characters want that risque or sexy look, I would hope the designers would try to find a good combination of practicality vs style. Perhaps they could do this by using skin-tight leather instead of chainmail bikinis. I dunno, doesn't bother me much outside the Asian-MMO feel it gives.
I find it funny that of the two female gamers who commented above, neither dislikes the risque armour, yet I, as a guy, do. Bit of a cliche-killer there.
In ArenaNet's words (source: http://www.arena.net/blog/designing-humans):
"I would like to say a quick word about where we stand when it comes to the “sexiness” of our armors and costumes. This is a controversial subject that I encounter frequently on forums and message boards—not just about Guild Wars, but about a lot of games. I understand that many players feel that armor should be practical, realistic, and shouldn’t leave skin exposed to attack. When coming up with ideas for armor, the character and concept department try to balance the practical with the fantasy. We make armor that looks protective and functional, but we also make armor that looks sexy and shows a generous level of strategically placed skin. We recognize the “fantasy” aspect of our game; if you are able to rain down balls of fire from the sky, your clothing should not be a factor when it comes to body temperature, whether you are wearing your underwear or a fur coat. We’ve always intended to create outfits for male and female characters that are appealing and attractive without making our players feel uncomfortable about what their character or other player-characters are wearing. I think that Guild Wars has been very successful in this regard, and we will continue to make outfits that adhere to this philosophy."
:)
In regards to the skimpy armor discussion:
Being a female gamer and having been one for a long time, I would say I am quite used to skimpy outfits in RPG's and MMO's.
For the large part I do not mind them, they can be fun and engaging in some cases. Since, lets be honest, women like to feel sexy and desirable every now and then. It can be a confidence booster.
The only time I have a problem with skimpy armor is when it fails to follow reason (melee/tank less covered than cloth wearers) or if it's exaggerated to the point of nearly glimpsing genitals (O.O). Imho that is past sexy and coming precariously close to pornographic and quite simply not necessary. Sex sells argument or not, imho it lowers the standard for a game by sending a the message " Oh actually, we don't have that much of content or that good game play but look here is some hot chicks to fap about" to boost sales. I find it harder to take such games seriously, they automatically fall into the for kick 'n giggles category for me (fun to look at but not worth investing time into).
Luckily that is not the case with Guild Wars 2. As already pointed out , there appears to be logic behind the reduction of armor: Cloth will not protect you from a stab in the chest (as a cloth user you should very well do your best to avoid melee range anyway). So wearing something that might possibly aid mobilty (that shall be my excuse anyway ;p) makes sense. While plate wearers by all means should cover up more, as they are more likely to to get that axe to the chest. Also the armor sets discussed in this video are relatively tame compared to other outfits that will be featured in upcoming games (looking at you Tera!)
I think most people tough would be happiest if they were given a choice between something sexy and something less revealing for their chars. Which ever they prefer , they should be able to pick without sacrificing epic looks or stats.
Sorry if I am being Captain Obvious here, but give people choices for their preference and you will find they more content.
My 2ct ; )
(sorry for the longish post and many brackets ;p)
I think that for the most part, the "gender issue" and pretty much anything else that has to do with nettiquette, we simply have to realize that a lot of it is due to the fact that the net is packed with children, especially with regards to gaming.
When I was a kid, I would crank call people, ring their doorbells and run, throw firecrackers at the feet of old ladies, set fire to trashcans etc, and I was the well behaved one. I dunno what it would be like to have this giant, competetive, violent and anonymous playground with absent, stupid parents and a boner to boot, cuz I'm too old to know. But whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it spawns a lot of really nasty things. Broken communities both on forums and off. Hacking and cheating and pretty much any "Lord of the Flies" effect you can think of.
In the future I do believe we will get the opportunity for more age segregation in our choice past time and I will welcome that day. Any gameserver or virtual setting with an age limit and an enforced identification process, I would gladly pay an extra fee for. It would not only give adults a more pleasant and more sophisticated experience but it would also be easier to seperate between real issues and just kids creating a stink, giving us the benefit of better focusing our resources both professionally and otherwise.
Cuz let's face it; If the kids are not mine and I'm not payed to look after them, my interest for spending time with them and putting up with all their crap when I'm trying to relax and have fun, is extremely limited.
Nice topic, I enjoyed it. As a female gamer, I can say with 100% certainty that I absolutely do not give one f*** about whether extremely skimpy armor can be found within a game. In my mind, men and women alike can have their male or female characters running around like nudists if they so choose. A skimpy/"sexy" costume (although I hate to use the word "sexy" since the word itself is formed on the basis of an opinion which varies heavily from person to person) for either a male OR female character becomes "objectifying" ONLY when there are no other alternatively modest or realistic costume available.
Think of it this way: if I (as a heterosexual female) were to build a virtual world in which the costumes available for female characters were all modest and realistic but in which the costumes available for male characters were all revealing, unrealistic, and "skimpy" or "sexy", I would be implying that that was how I viewed the world: with women as modest, realistic, and powerful on their own and men as powerful only within the context of being a sexual symbol. HOWEVER, if I were to build a virtual world in which the costumes available for both male and female characters contained a relative mix of both modest and revealing, realistic and fantastical designs, I would be implying that the level of modesty or sexuality inherent in either sex is up to the PLAYER as a personal choice and NOT a reflection of my objectification of either sex.
Thus, one should not look to a specific armor set in order to draw conclusions about the personal opinions of the CREATOR (ie: ArenaNet, in this case) but rather one should look to the WHOLE and draw conclusions from the PROPORTIONALITY of modesty vs sexuality inherent in the designs.
In the end, the sexuality inherent in any being (real or virtual) is a false construct built by both the wearer AND the observer. Objectification only occurs when personal choice is either limited or eradicated completely. So long as personal choice remains inherent in the system, the apparent objectification of either sex is not the fault of the CREATOR (ArenaNet) but the PLAYER. What defines sexuality to ME may not define sexuality to YOU, and etc, etc. If you fight to eliminate any choice completely (say...the eradication of all "sexy" armor sets so that only "modest" designs exist), it is actually YOU who is doing the objectifying.
Personally, I believe very strongly in equal choice for all parties, but I am realistic enough to know that true equality is already impossible within the real world---so why would I ever expect it in a virtual world, which is even more dependent on a bias. Plus.........it just freaking pisses me off when people see ONE FREAKING OUTFIT and OMGITSTHEENDOFTHEWORLDYOUHATESTHEWOMENSSLKFJDS&%#&R$#!!!! Most people aren't like that (thank god), but there are still plenty out there. As a woman, I am more offended by those types of people than by some freaking virtual costume.