Tales of Tyria #31: Green Is Better Than Blue?

This week we take the time to start re-introducing the hosts to you guys who have joined us since the first episode.  Vega heads into "The Gauntlet."  Will he come out unscathed?  We also spend quite a bit of time talking about the inventory system and bag management in Guild Wars 2, along with a Bridger Rant on gem prices.  Finally, we take the time to go back and discuss if the game has truly delivered on it's promise to destroy the holy trinity.

 Episode 31:

• 06:34 - Feedback: WvW Keep Balance
• 12:14 - News: Guided Tour of Lion's Arch, Stress Test, and Post Launch Content
• 29:30 - Bridger Rant: $1 = 80 gems?  WTF?!?!
• 34:02 - Roundtable: PvE Revisited - Is the holy trinity truly gone?

Weekly Question:

Question of the Week - Having played the beta, what are your thoughts on the holy trinity?

Let us know what you think and send us feedback.  Also, watch us live on Sunday nights @ 8pm EDT.

Comments

[Cave Rock]

Vega won in my books! He is right it is about having fun and the whole level 80 thing will not factor in as people are already scaled to the content whatever level they are. Also i am looking forward to seeing Vega do a multibox dungeon run with 5 engineers. Setting up millions of turrets and then having one crazy mad Asura, to instruct a dumb Norn to run in and kamikaze pull the mobs back to the turrets. With all the engineers at the same time filling each rolled needed as that is what all the professions can do in GW2.

[Torko]

Hey!
I want to say thanks for your show! It is something that keeps me into the GW2 thing while waiting for this awesome game. Who knows maybe they can release this game in this decade ;-p .... Only Jesus knows...
Greetings from Germany!
Keep up this awesome show! :-)

[Bridger]

Thanks Torko. We'll certainly try to keep it going :)

[John]

Hey Guys,
Great show guys, best GW2 show in my opinion. VEGA stick to your guns man, I am with you 100% on the Trinity thing.
I am planning to do a 5 Ranger or 5 Warrior run though the dungeons when the game goes live.
It will be possible because of the multiple options the professions have to their builds. Yes you will fail if all the players take the exact same skills and builds. But if the players are smart and work as a group, building their characters for the dungeon and working together, anything will be possible.

Would love to try those anti trinity runs with you Vega, but being from Australia don't think it would be possible.

Cheers for the entertaining show, take care

[Galatea]

Here's why Vega was right and Freelancer was wrong: even if there is an optimal build that finished the dungeon fastest, it has to be *enough* better than a suboptimal build that it's worth the extra time and effort to put it together, or there's really no benefit to it. In games with dedicated tanks, dedicated healers, and dedicated deeps, and the game is balanced around these, you need that right combination. But that's a game entirely unlike GW2, where no classes are dedicated in this manner, and although some might be better at a task than another, the differences aren't that huge. In GW2, the suboptimal team build is not so far behind the perfect build, so it's more time efficient to just run with what you've got than to try to wait around assembling the perfect team. One class may be better than any other at a particular task, but no class is *enough* better to make a difference worth bothering with. The mere fact that there's an optimal team does not support Freelancer's view unless the difference is substantial enough to justify the extra hassle to assemble it.

[Nanfoodle]

Trinity is not dead!!!! If it was dead everyone would just be DPSing or doing what ever they wanted and still win. At some point in a boss fight everyone is going to switch between the rolls of heal, damage mitigation, and focused dps. Thats the trinity. Sure its dressed differently but in the end all 3 rolls are there and REQUIRED to be used to win. Im ready for it to be different but dont fool your self its very much alive in this game. We are going to find X skill = easy win on B fight so Y class will be sought after as thats the hardest part of M dungeon. The fail will come if its the same 2 classes are needed for every dungeon run.

[Zulunko]

Something worth pointing out (being a min/maxer myself):

There are large tradeoffs with overspecialization in GW2. Lets say I want a group to do a dungeon. I know Elementalists are good at support, so I tell an Ele buddy to max out his support capabilities. Now, naturally in all MMO's, but especially in GW2, as you max out one role (in this case, support) you completely obliterate your abilities to do other roles, and the conversion is extremely inefficient. For example, maxing out an Elementalist's support ability to get an extra 25% healing might halve the damage the Elementalist can push out. A min/maxer, such as myself, would see this (preferably in spreadsheet format with real numbers and complex formulae) and say, "Hey, why don't we take an Elementalist who has a hybrid damage/support build and take a ranger who has a few points in support, as well?", as this would produce a higher damage output as well as a higher healing output. In traditional MMO's, it makes sense to stick to one role and avoid hybrids because of the way talent trees work, so min/maxing was all at the player level. In Guild Wars 2, however, min/maxing will be at the group level, and, since you'll be min/maxing your group, you'll want a lot more hybrid builds so you can cover all the bases while still maintaining maximum overall efficiency.

Now, I'm not going to say all min/maxers are necessarily open-minded enough to start thinking in groups instead of in individuals, but it stands to reason that the best group would be one that's built for each other, not made up of separate modular parts like "healers", "tanks", and "dps". I have high hopes for peoples' abilities to understand this new type of theorycrafting and utilize it effectively. If they do this, they've essentially eliminated any "trinity" system.

Note: All example numbers are made up. This is based on what I believe Guild Wars 2 is aiming for in profession balance, but it's very possible that they mess up and end up accidentally making min/maxing specific roles efficient. At the current point, though, even in the beta, maximizing one role is very inefficient, so at least in beta terms, the above holds true.

[Roy]

I agree with Vega. The existence of an optimal team build for a specific encounter does not prove that any particular combination is destined to become integral to the game itself. If you can sprint through the Ascalonian Catacombs with a given team build, that doesn't mean that the same team is the best for all dungeons. No build will be so much better than all others at everything that it becomes the scale by which the game is balanced. Ubiquity was the hallmark of the healer-tank-damage tradition, but that ubiquity doesn't exist in GW2. It is possible to do it without the three components, so the mold is broken.

[Sufi]

I will totally support Vega rather than the standard arrogance of Free in this discussion. I put myself in the 'filthy casuals' bucket who play games to have fun and enjoy the journey and will 100% back Anet in their desire to change the mindset of players around the need for the holy trinity.